The Tao of Gaming

Boardgames and lesser pursuits

Thoughts on yesterday’s games

Some discussions overheard, some games pondered.

One local complained Tichu had too much luck uninteresting card play for a climbing game (see 2nd comment for clarification). Unlike my typical complaints, he marshaled a specific objection: the high frequency of 6+ card melds (usually straights, but sometimes 3+ running pairs). I’ve only played a few games, but that seems right. In last last night’s game (which had perhaps 8-10 hands), I had long melds on 2 hands (both 7+ cards), and three pairs on another. [On one of those hands, I covered an opening 1-6 straight]. Now, why is this a problem? Assume you win with an ace (or dragon). When limited to 5 cards, you need at least three leads to go out, and then only on a 5-5-3 (after winning a single lead). It’s much easier to out out with a 6-6-1 or 6-5-2. (To say nothing of 7+ card tricks). It takes less planning to say “Win the Dragon, Play an eight card straight, hope it holds up, and then exit with a fullhouse (or straight).” And there’s been several sightings of the 1-14 opening lead. This is the “Grand Slam” of Tichu, but its luck of the draw (and not that improbable).

I feel that the luck is acceptable (for the game length), but I’m wondering what the converted (and I know a few of them read this) have to say. It would be simple enough to change the game to just disallow 6+ card melds (perhaps exempting bombs).

I wonder how Bridge would change if you passed cards (perhaps just between partners) before bidding. More wild distributions (as people would routinely pass away singletons, or shorten doubletons) would be the norm. Skill would increase, but there would be some bizarre changes. Such as making some communication ‘encrypted’ etc. Imagine a convention that passing away an ace to your partner indicates 20+ points (pre-pass). Now all of your opening bids are all ‘Strong club’ but natural (in length).

I played a few hands of Tichu this weekend on BSW. Lost both games, but part of that was nerves (and a less than understanding partner. Once she went off in a puff I had a decent game). Since Tichu is brief activity followed by a lull, I don’t mind that some hands are rote. On a related note, I’ve been watching more baseball.

I played my fourth playtest game of Leaping Lemmings, for the first time with only five players. That helped. The game tightened up by 10-15 minutes & each player had an additional special action.

We’re getting to the point where we’ve run through all of the cards for Stage II. Hasbro, hear my plea! Release new cards. (Or pay me to make an expansion set). Still, I’ve gotten 20+ games out of this.

I also taught Caylus Magna Carta last night, and on the way home thought … “Do I really need to own Caylus any more?” Big Card Caylus seems fluid, partially because I’ve only played it a few times, but I suspect it will endure longer. I haven’t played The Original in about a year, moves feel obvious or arbitrary. (Either there’s one clearly best move or the decision is so close that either could be correct without a ton of analysis). Not many games get to 100+ plays (even if all but 10-15 took place online). I think I’ll keep Caylus for another year and see how I feel about the newcomer.

Finally, I traded for a copy of Augsburg 1520. I played a prototype at the ’06 Gathering, but had a rule or two wrong. This is one of those Euro “Economic” games (ala St. Petersburg) where you buy victory points, or income producer, or some 3rd thing that somewhat mixes the two. In any case, I’m still somewhat entranced by the bizarre auction system, where you bid a number of cards (and can call or raise, and then show off a hand, with the high hand having to discard the whole hand, and lower hands keeping their cards and getting a small pittance of money). All hands are simply “High card” (and cards range 1-17). If you have the 17, you want to bid 1. If you have the 1-2-3, perhaps a bid of 3 will win (and if note, the other hands will throw away 3 cards). Perhaps bidding four (using a wild) and hope that you lose!

The auction mechanics aren’t hard to grasp, and have some interest. The other mechanisms take a few turns to really get a feel for, but directly challenge the standard “Income Early, Points Late” mindset. A person going for points early can do quite well, but has to handle the mid-game with care. And its easy to fall behind on points and run out of time. (Or just constantly bid a moderate or high bid and find you are one card worse).

But Augsburg probably won’t make the dime list. It’s just auctions and auctions, and the last turn is “Bid all your money.” Games with six turns should have decisions on all six. Perhaps the sweet spot is 2 players, or three, where psychology trumps. No doubt players who tracked cards shown will play this at a deeper level. Still, I’m willing to play a few more times.

And in today’s mail … Critical Shift. I have to make some Shadowfist decks …. Nope, apparently it was a mixup. Sigh.

Update: I did not exactly capture the point for Tichu… see the second comment…

Written by taogaming

August 7, 2007 at 5:58 pm

12 Responses

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  1. I think your friend doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about with Tichu, personally, probably just hasn’t played enough. To say it has more luck and less interesting decisions than Gang of Four is, imho, just insane.

    I have played I believe more than 700 games of Tichu. I have never personally gotten to play a 1-A straight and think have seen it played about 4 times. OTOH, I have had 10+ card straights and not even called Tichu tons of times as despite getting rid of a ton of cards, you still have several left that may be nearly impossible to get rid of. Every card game has great and bad hands, the possible long combinations in Tichu doesn’t really change this.

    To suggest that Tichu hands average someone going out in two plays with no interesting decisions as he does is just plain WRONG. Maybe this somehow miraculously happened in his two games but isn’t close to the norm.

    Aaron Fuegi

    August 7, 2007 at 6:12 pm

  2. This is the local. To clarify, I don’t believe that there is more luck in Tichu, just less interesting cardplay. In other “climbing” games I’ve played, there was a lot of tension around when to hold and when to play your high singles and pairs, balancing keeping the lead with not getting caught with only low cards. In my Tichu games thus far, it hasn’t mattered.

    In 14 hands I’ve seen:

    – a 7+ card straight in 9 of them, and the holder has won all nine (except that in one, a 7-card straight was beaten by a higher 7-card straight).
    – a 10+ card straight three times, and all went out in 2-3 plays.
    – one team go out without the other playing a card twice.

    Maybe we are passing/playing poorly to get such results, though I’d rather not get into quality of play in a partnership game — that way lies broken friendships.

    Put another way, what does 6+ card straights add to the game?

    Dennis Ugolini

    August 7, 2007 at 7:49 pm

  3. What does 6+ card straights add to the game

    That’s a nice way to phrase it.

    One counter argument … the really long straight (say, 8 cards) is more flexible to try and grab the lead. For example, with a Q-5 I can play the Queen to try and grab the lead (particularly if most of the higher cards have gone). On the other hand, I could keep the extra length to protect against a 6 or 7 card straight. That’s the decision.

    If I’m only allowed to play a five card straight, then playing of the medium high cards is mandatory (unless I dn’t care about going out, just blocking a Tichu, and want to keep the Q-8 instead of the T-5).

    I have never personally gotten to play a 1-A straight and think have seen it played about 4 times. OTOH, I have had 10+ card straights and not even called Tichu tons of times as despite getting rid of a ton of cards, you still have several left that may be nearly impossible to get rid of. Every card game has great and bad hands, the possible long combinations in Tichu doesn’t really change this.

    Back to the luck issue, the 1-A isn’t a great hand. It’s perfect. No brainer. Detach Brain, Call Tichu, Drop Hand. By your estimate, it shows up roughly every 200 games. That’s not too much, but it like getting a 13 card spade suit (or solid 38 count) in bridge every 100 sessions or so. Can’t really compare different games like that, but how often do no decision hands show up in Gang of Four, or Great Dalmuti?

    Brian

    August 7, 2007 at 9:26 pm

  4. Just to further clarify, Bridge does have some points of no decision (like opening a flat 16 count 1NT, assuming yuu play strong NT), but then the decisions show up later on.

    Tichu’s passing has decisions, and (as Dennis mentioned) perhaps we’re missing a key point in passing, but it seems to me to be mainly luck if you get a large straight (or Bomb) filled by passing.

    Brian

    August 7, 2007 at 9:29 pm

  5. I’ve always said that I find the cardplay of The Bum Game (http://www.thegamesjournal.com/rules/TheBumGame.shtml) to be more interesting than that of Tichu. Tichu’s cardplay is still as good as or better than that of any of the other well known climbing games. Plus, you’ve got the passing, Tichu calling, and other interesting features of the game. So even though I’m not a big fan, I’ve gotta say the game is better than Dennis thinks. And it sure sounds as if he’s encountering a whole bunch of weird hands.

    Augsburg is a very good, underrated game and I agree that the auction mechanism is really interesting. Hope you’re able to keep getting it on the table.

    Larry Levy

    August 7, 2007 at 10:43 pm

  6. I’ve never seen a no-brainer hand in Great Dalmuti that fits your definition (drop hand in one play or something of that nature) although it technically could exist, but in my experience, anyone who has much experience at all with that style of game will find that the vast majority of hands play on auto-pilot with a minimum amount of thought. Not quite brain-dead, but close. Whether thats a good thing for you on a particular hand is really up to the cards you actually hold. And the pass in Great Dalmuti is almost guaranteed to be a non-decision for everyone involved.

    I feel as if the threat of bombs and long straights is something that creates tension and decisions where in a game like Great Dalmuti there would be none. Aaron may have experienced 1-A straights once every 200 games on average but I would highly doubt that this is the norm. I might try to work out some before the pass information (like how likely it is that you have 11/14 cards that could end up being part of the 14 card straight), but for the most part I would say I’m willing to accept that such hands exist and even am willing to accept that they occur more frequently than perfect bridge hands. There also exist non-perfect bridge hands that result in non-decisions throughout while en route to achieving the maximum result possible(assuming passing opponents).

    In my opinion though, too many potential decisions in a game can be just as bad as not enough, especially with slower players. I would rather play 5 reasonably interesting games in a session than one hardcore brainburner or 10 mindless games. I strongly thing Tichu is somewhere in between the extremes and so qualifies as a nice card game because of that.

    Michael

    August 7, 2007 at 11:07 pm

  7. Put another way, what does 6+ card straights add to the game?

    I think if you don’t play with 6+ card straights you unbalance the game towards pairs, trips and full houses. When considering what to pass the pairs+ are already more likely to get you bombs, but if they can also empty your hand as efficiently or nearly as efficiently as straights it requires less thought on what to hold. Splitting pairs on the pass to hope for an extended straight becomes less viable.

    The great danger with the long straights is the difficulty of getting back in if you get beat. Playing a 6 card straight and having a 5 left is not a great feeling, particularly if it isn’t the top 6 card straight and other players still have a lot of cards. Meanwhile leading with A, A, Q, Q, 2, 2, 3 has a very strong chance to go out even if overplayed.

    frunk

    August 8, 2007 at 9:57 am

  8. Dennis,

    I think your games have certainly been extreme. 7+ card straights actually do occur in a good % of hands, although not sure just what. The really surprising thing from your games is that the person with one always went out first. If he has 7 other lame cards, which would fairly often be the case, he will have no chance at all to go out first and often will in fact never even win a lead to play his straight until at least 1 person is already out.

    Having one partnership (both people) go out before either opponent played a card I can NEVER remember happening in 700 games so think this just super-miraculous that happened twice in your games.

    Now, for the larger question, of what do the big groups add to the game? The problem in so many of these games is that the powerful singles just dominate too much (and I have had lots of Great Dalmutti games where had a no-brainer keep my Great Dalmutti position leading high singles and winning them with low ones till I was out). Because in Tichu it is very possible to have an extremely good hand (even basically perfect) with little or no of the Aces-Phx-Dra I think makes it a ton more interesting. The high cards are obviously still the best cards but are not AS dominant as in most games, particularly as the low cards are passed more often and so fill in the low groups more.

    Aaron Fuegi

    August 8, 2007 at 11:45 am

  9. Dennis,

    I think your games have certainly been extreme. 7+ card straights actually do occur in a good % of hands, although not sure just what. The really surprising thing from your games is that the person with one always went out first. If he has 7 other lame cards, which would fairly often be the case, he will have no chance at all to go out first and often will in fact never even win a lead to play his straight until at least 1 person is already out.

    Having one partnership (both people) go out before either opponent played a card I can NEVER remember happening in 700 games so think this just super-miraculous that happened twice in your games.

    Now, for the larger question, of what do the big groups add to the game? The problem in so many of these games is that the powerful singles just dominate too much (and I have had lots of Great Dalmutti games where had a no-brainer keep my Great Dalmutti position leading high singles and winning them with low ones till I was out). Because in Tichu it is very possible to have an extremely good hand (even basically perfect) with little or no of the Aces-Phx-Dra I think makes it a ton more interesting. The high cards are obviously still the best cards but are not AS dominant as in most games, particularly as the low cards are passed more often and so fill in the low groups more.

    Aaron Fuegi

    August 8, 2007 at 11:45 am

  10. 1) Long straights are FUN. Period.

    2) I’m 100% with you on Stage II. New edition, and fewer questions about 1930s boxers, please!!

    3) Agreed: CMC >>> C

    Anthony Rubbo

    August 10, 2007 at 4:40 pm

  11. 1) Long straights are FUN. Period.

    2) I’m 100% with you on Stage II. New edition, and fewer questions about 1930s boxers, please!!

    3) Agreed: CMC >>> C

    Anthony Rubbo

    August 10, 2007 at 4:40 pm

  12. 2) I’m 100% with you on Stage II. New edition, and fewer questions about 1930s boxers, please!!

    Personally the ones that kill me are the VP candidates in the 1920s.

    Brian

    August 10, 2007 at 5:06 pm


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